Women in Leadership with Jess Quak and Maddy Mandall: Navigating Faith, Ministry, and Mental Health (Part 2)

This is Sunburnt Souls, the Christian Mental Health Podcast. In Part 2, Jess and Dave Quak continue their discussion... They explore living out a ministry calling, navigating gender-based expectations, and the joys of pastoral work, emphasising authentic leadership and empowering the next generation.

Key Moments

• Introduction and Recap (00:00:00 - 00:01:47): Dave recaps Part 1, focusing on women’s callings and mental health, and asks what it’s like to live out one’s calling post-hurdles.
• Living Out the Calling (00:01:47 - 00:04:36): Maddy is grateful to minister as dreamed, despite some churches excluding her due to gender. Jess appreciates not justifying her presence but struggles with tokenism.
• Navigating Tokenism (00:04:36 - 00:09:08): Jess addresses being invited for her gender, not qualifications, and fights cynicism. Maddy advocates for broader inclusion to ensure women’s voices are valued.
• Empowering the Next Generation (00:14:42 - 00:18:45): Maddy notes Project 11’s young leaders respect her, and hopes for more women to lead authentically, despite few solo female senior pastors.
• Authentic Leadership Styles (00:18:45 - 00:23:56): Maddy’s collaborative style, shaped by early challenges, fosters team ownership. Jess values freedom to lead authentically, serving unique communities.
• Women in the Church (00:23:56 - 00:28:30): Maddy cites historical female-majority church attendance, with shifts among Gen Z males. Dave and Jess push for creative, diverse church structures.
• Joys of Pastoral Ministry (00:28:30 - 00:33:17): Maddy loves empowering young women and seeing community transformation. Jess finds joy in people’s moments of revelation.
• Closing Prayer (00:33:17 - 00:35:17): Maddy prays for diverse callings, grace in tough questions, and alignment with God’s purpose.

Key Insights

• Gratitude Amid Challenges: Fulfilling a calling is joyful, but gender-based barriers like tokenism persist.
• Authentic Leadership: Women should lead as God designed, embracing collaborative or nurturing styles.
• Breaking Stereotypes: Diverse giftings, like Jess’s strategy and Dave’s hospitality, enrich ministry.

☀️ CONNECT with Sunburnt Souls

Discover more from Sunburnt Souls — a Christian mental health podcast sharing real stories of faith, hope, and healing at sunburntsouls.com.

Explore our library of Christian mental health resources, including podcasts, free devotionals, and online courses designed to help you strengthen your faith, overcome anxiety and depression, and experience emotional and spiritual renewal.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, $28 journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

🙏 SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 ...

Transcript

Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. My name is Dave Quak, and on the show we speak about life and faith and our mental well-being. And last week, we started chatting to desk worker Maddie Mandell about leadership and what it means to be a woman called to ministry and all the mental health implications of that. I ended last week with a question that we didn't answer.

00:00:18:13 - 00:00:36:01
Dave Quak 
So we're going to pick up there today and just explore a little bit more what it means to be called and live as a woman of faith. If you missed last week, check it out on Spotify or Apple or any of the major podcast providers, and make sure you send us any comments if you have any. Because I feel super blessed that we're able to tackle this topic.

00:00:36:05 - 00:00:55:16
Dave Quak 
So thanks for tuning into some souls and let's pick it up where we left off last week. So for you girls, you both had a time where you were okay, like feeling cold hurdles ahead. And I'm not saying there's not further hurdles, but right now, Jess, your senior pastor of a church, planted another church doing lots of speaking.

00:00:55:17 - 00:00:59:15
Dave Quak 
You kind of live in the hurdle. Like, you know.

00:00:59:16 - 00:01:00:15
Jess Quak 
I'm outside on the other.

00:01:00:15 - 00:01:20:12
Dave Quak 
Side of the hurdle. You're on the other side, Maddie. You're taking care of the development of the young adults in our movement, which is so vital because leadership development, as you would be all over, is so important because they're just not coming through like they did 20 years ago. Like when I was a Bible college, there was a whole gaggle of us, yeah, who were like, itching to be pastors.

00:01:20:13 - 00:01:39:14
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we're at my friend Stefs church at the moment, and he was there and there was heaps of us, and it was like, come on, let's do this. Yeah. They're not there now. Yeah. And so you're on the other end of the hurdle in the sense that you're mentoring basically most of the next generation leaders and stuff. So what's it like being on the other end of the hurdle?

00:01:39:14 - 00:01:47:20
Dave Quak 
I know there's more hurdles coming, but at least now you're like living what you feel called to. So what's it like living on the other side of that hurdle?

00:01:47:22 - 00:02:09:04
Maddy Mandell
There's, I think it's one of those things, like, there's a lot of I do have a lot of gratefulness, and I have, I have a lot of moments where I've. I've sat back and I've looked at God and and. Yeah, just worship him being like, this is this is what I really wanted to be. This is what I wanted to be doing years ago.

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:28:17
Maddy Mandell
And, and the spaces that I wanted to be ministering and the people that I wanted to be walking alongside. And so and so in no senses. Yeah. Heaps of gratitude. You know, it's. And then like, you know, not to, like, drag it back again though, but like, there is an element even not even on the other side of, of those big hurdles.

00:02:28:19 - 00:02:50:16
Maddy Mandell
You're still and you're still navigating them to a certain extent as well. Like I, you know, I feel like instead of, working through calling myself and, you know, being like being the case study subject to working through that in a community. I get to sit in more of an advocacy space now on a larger level as well.

00:02:50:16 - 00:03:15:09
Maddy Mandell
And that that comes with its own challenges, for sure. But that's, you know, like, I, I it's this isn't just about me. Like, this is, you know, this is for the future women that are coming alongside me, but also just for the future of our churches and of the kingdom of God, because I believe that those things are all really tied together and so, yeah, in some senses, it hasn't totally disappeared.

00:03:15:09 - 00:03:33:14
Maddy Mandell
It just kind of like grows in its scale, which, you know, is is what it is. But but yeah, definitely not to discount the moments of, of gratitude. And just, you know, like being able to, to walk in and minister in such a way where some of those questions have, have the question marks that really, really plagued me in the early days.

00:03:33:17 - 00:03:34:06
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:03:34:08 - 00:03:50:15
Maddy Mandell
Have soul in a way. You know, and there are still men like there. Their churches, I know, will not invite me to come speak. And not that I, you know, and that's like that. That is their their choice. And there's still a pain that comes from kind of feeling like there is that's a glass ceiling or like, I would just love to bless and serve like.

00:03:50:19 - 00:03:51:02
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:03:51:03 - 00:03:53:22
Maddy Mandell
A whole movement. And I that's not going to happen.

00:03:53:22 - 00:04:01:12
Dave Quak 
And they'll probably be project 11 students in those churches as well that you could go and speak and talk about told them up and yeah.

00:04:01:14 - 00:04:15:05
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, all those different things and so you know, there's I guess it's I guess it's just kind of a grace that goes along with that. I have, I have, I have, you know, I respect that and you know, that that's just a reality and that's okay. But, but there's a little grief in my heart for that as well.

00:04:15:05 - 00:04:34:01
Maddy Mandell
But but certainly, yeah, so much gratitude to, to just be able to walk in a way and to walk in spaces that, that I had that I had dreamed of, I guess, and wondered, am I ever going to be able to do that, or is it always going to, is it always going to feel like I'm, I'm trying to get over a hurdle or coming up against a wall or, or whatever that might look like?

00:04:34:03 - 00:04:36:13
Dave Quak 
Yeah, you too. Yeah.

00:04:36:15 - 00:05:05:16
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So it's a because I'm sort of in a little bit of a different space is somewhat of a different dynamic. But yeah. That gratitude thing. Absolutely. It's, when you feel like you're no longer having to justify your presence. Yeah. It's really beautiful where you can just be yourself and you can explore the other parts of yourself that you have to offer apart from just your gender.

00:05:05:18 - 00:05:38:14
Jess Quak 
Which is awesome. But I think for me, my probably my biggest current hurdle that I still working through in this particular space is is perhaps my own cynicism. With very being the token female like, you are asked to come along to this thing, or you're asked to be a part of this thing simply because I'm a woman, and not necessarily because I'm the best person for that job.

00:05:38:16 - 00:06:05:04
Jess Quak 
And I see both sides of it. I see, that there are other people who just my presence by being a woman in this space, will help that person not have to justify their own calling and that sort of that responsibility that comes with that. But it's also the exact opposite of what I was sort of standing for at the beginning of the whole thing going, it's nothing to do with whether I'm a guy or a girl.

00:06:05:04 - 00:06:32:06
Jess Quak 
It's just about, this is I'm the best person for this because God has called me to it. So there's that sort of tension that's there with things and just trying to navigate, okay, God, I want to do the right thing across the board with this, and I want to make sure that I'm not the token, that I have something to bring, and that it's still an element of really being prayerful about.

00:06:32:08 - 00:06:58:14
Jess Quak 
When I say yes to something or notice something, I'm going to have to do that anyway. Life is a party. Pretty maxed out anyway. But just knowing going forward there is an element, and especially because so often, you know, if I'm asked to go preached at church, it's always talking about women in ministry. Can you we need a woman to do this, which absolutely makes sense because it's really hard.

00:06:58:16 - 00:07:18:12
Jess Quak 
Yeah. Like, you know, we hate preaching on money at church because we were receiving a wage from the church. So it seems really self-serving and really like, but as so then it makes sense. But it's still like, okay, how do how do I navigate this sort of space?

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:27:21
Dave Quak 
So how do you know if you're being invited to things because you both get invited to a lot of things. If it is token or if it is genuine.

00:07:27:23 - 00:07:31:17
Maddy Mandell
It's almost not even the question I ask any.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:35:23
Dave Quak 
You just take the opportunity usually.

00:07:36:00 - 00:08:00:10
Maddy Mandell
And you know. If you're the only, you know, often it's like being asked to join a committee or whatever. You're the only woman there or, you know, you know that yourself. And everyone has only been asked because they looked around the room and realized this is like, oh, do you do, that, you know, there's a certain picture that's forming there.

00:08:00:10 - 00:08:19:22
Maddy Mandell
But, you know, it's in certain spaces. I think it's just I found like, no, it's just it's important to take it. And, you know, particularly if I am the only person these days talking about that advocacy space, I just do what I can to make sure that's kind of not the case next time, because you also that that's a difficult space to be in because you're like, oh, like, great, I'm here.

00:08:20:01 - 00:08:39:03
Maddy Mandell
But now I feel like I'm representing all womankind. And that's like a ridiculous pressure to place on somebody as well. And so, you know, I'm stepping into those spaces and being like, okay, like I'm, I'm thankful for this opportunity and I'm going to be as brave as I possibly can be and speak out. Yeah, and speak out and be that voice.

00:08:39:03 - 00:08:57:17
Maddy Mandell
But how can I make sure that next time or even, you know, just like that, there is that there's a wider path being carved out, so that it's not just like a token voice so we can take a box, but so that the voices of women are actually being more holistically and genuinely incorporated into those conversations in the future.

00:08:57:17 - 00:09:08:20
Maddy Mandell
So like, yeah, I think that's the thing. I don't know, maybe that is a cynical view of like, oh, maybe it's just tokenism more than we want it to be. But, well, you know, how can God use that opportunity? Yeah, nonetheless. Yeah.

00:09:08:22 - 00:09:31:11
Dave Quak 
Back to an earlier illustrations like so with Kay Warren. So you would on paper look at the weekend Kay and Rick's obviously the one who most people know around the world. But when it came to talking about her son and everything I want to hear from Kay. Dear. I mean like she's the authority on what it would be like to lose a son.

00:09:31:17 - 00:09:44:20
Dave Quak 
I know he lost a son too, but there's just a different angle from a mum, you know what I mean. Look I'm like I want to hear from the mum, do you know what I mean? And so there are some areas where the mum, the females, the ladies are the authority and the place where you want them there.

00:09:44:22 - 00:10:00:23
Dave Quak 
And so, like you said, Jess, you don't want just to be the token person, you want to be the best person. And so I'd like to see conferences where the, the four best people are the four best people, irrespective of gender or you know, that the you know, I said, if I told you all women could. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

00:10:00:24 - 00:10:01:09
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:10:01:10 - 00:10:18:16
Dave Quak 
Like it's a bizarre thought like that. We would just okay, put somebody in and I'm sorry when you guys feel like that, because that would be it. I mean, I don't mind being the token guy because I just like opportunities, but I like what's on, and I'm so like, I'm a middle class white dude. Like, it's just a whole different ballgame.

00:10:18:16 - 00:10:38:12
Dave Quak 
Like to have barriers in front of me because agenda has never been a thing. Yeah. Or race or any of that stuff. It's just been kind of like, here's the, you know, the red carpet walk down that dude. And yeah, church doors open and, you know, the pastoring doors open and speaking door's open. It's a whole different thing.

00:10:38:12 - 00:10:53:01
Dave Quak 
And then theologically, I don't really have to wrestle with anything because there's so many male disciples. It's like, I've got all these examples as Peter and John and you know what I mean? So I like I don't have to like, wrestle that much with the hard passages in scripture.

00:10:53:03 - 00:10:54:10
Maddy Mandell
It's just.

00:10:54:12 - 00:11:20:09
Jess Quak 
Yeah, I think there's even to like on a micro level, we kind of like we have in our marriage, even so, both in our leadership, because we share the senior pastor role in our leadership, in our marriage, in our friendship. We, a little bit reversed with some things, like if we're going to have someone over for dinner to cook, I'm not going to be the one who's doing it.

00:11:20:09 - 00:11:52:16
Jess Quak 
It's going to be Dave. And so like but classically, the stereotype is okay, we have hospitality ministry coming up. Women, where are you? Where is one of our best hospitality people in our church is a guy. And when Zach's on, he makes the best cookies and everyone is like, yes, sex on today. And like, so for me it's it's that constant little like, you know, oh, you'd be before we had kids, I was okay on kids ministry, but I was really in the youth space.

00:11:52:16 - 00:11:53:11
Dave Quak 
But yeah.

00:11:53:13 - 00:12:07:18
Jess Quak 
That, you should be great with kids or you should run women's ministry. Like, that's really like, I see that you're trying to, like, involve me, and that's wonderful. But you've got to know that these are really not my areas of gifting you like. But, but.

00:12:07:18 - 00:12:34:02
Dave Quak 
And so it goes deeper. Just like the other day. Like it's not I mean, hospitality, another great example. But most people would say that in a church, you know, the male senior pastor would be the guy who pulls apart the series for the next six weeks and works that out. Whereas the other day, and this is literally what happened, I went with Jess over to my friend Andy's house, and all three of us were going to pull apart the series, and within two minutes I'm like, these geeks, I just.

00:12:34:02 - 00:12:53:13
Dave Quak 
And so I just went outside with his wife and had a cup of tea and Jess to do it because that's her area of strength. Like she froths out on it and like, it's so funny, like people in our church know that you steal the teaching series and you're actually the more committed pastor out of the two of us.

00:12:53:13 - 00:13:11:08
Dave Quak 
Like, I've always got reservations and complications and you know what I mean? Like, I'm not the stable one out of the two of us. Although if they had to pick between you and I as a senior pastor, they would be very wise to pick you. And you know it and they know it. And people listening would say it.

00:13:11:10 - 00:13:33:04
Dave Quak 
I communicate well, but I'm not structurally anything behind the scenes. Do you know what I mean? And so what? And what's a pastor supposed to do is like shepherd the flock. I can do that with a few. But I don't have this, like mad big shepherding kinda thing. Whereas you want to raise up, you know, the next generation of people you want to sow into leaders and life group leaders and stuff.

00:13:33:06 - 00:13:42:17
Dave Quak 
Like when I, I just find it very hilarious that your skill set is way more applicable in the church then my skill set. And then just because I'm the rebel.

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:43:09
Jess Quak 
But yeah.

00:13:43:09 - 00:13:45:12
Dave Quak 
But yeah, because I'm the loud voice guy. Yeah.

00:13:45:12 - 00:13:55:06
Jess Quak 
You're the classic like back in the 90s when you're, like, looking for a new leader. There's the loudest guy in the room and he's so charismatic. We're picking them because they must be the leader.

00:13:55:08 - 00:13:59:02
Dave Quak 
He can tell a joke and make the Bible sound appealing. Yeah, let's get him on.

00:13:59:04 - 00:14:20:02
Jess Quak 
That's not to devalue that, though. There's definitely great value in that. It's good for the team. But yeah, we definitely have those different and just because yeah, you're a man and I'm a woman. Like even like you love a good rom com. You love it like I don't watch TV. So when people are talking about this actor and that actor, I've got no idea what people are talking about.

00:14:20:02 - 00:14:35:00
Jess Quak 
And Dave is like, right in there. Like, yes. Have you seen the new season of this or whatever? Which is awesome. It makes you so relatable. It's wonderful. But I'm just that stuff's like over my head. I'm like, yeah, I really could not give a rip. But if you want to talk about the cricket, I am all over.

00:14:35:01 - 00:14:36:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah, you hate it.

00:14:36:22 - 00:14:42:05
Dave Quak 
It's sort of the stereotype. They don't work in our fun side of things, but also in our ministry side of things.

00:14:42:05 - 00:15:01:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So that's I think probably where the cynicism comes from. A little be doing that. And that's my own stuff to work through. And just, you know, no, probably more feeling a lot more comfortable in my own skin to be like, yeah, no, that's actually not my thing. You. Yeah. That's okay. It doesn't have to be my thing.

00:15:01:20 - 00:15:05:16
Jess Quak 
If that's. And that's all right, too. Yeah. But yeah.

00:15:05:20 - 00:15:16:00
Dave Quak 
But in your context with the people you're developing, do you find that the young male leaders listen to you as well as the young female leaders with P11 and everything?

00:15:16:02 - 00:15:35:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I think so. You know, it like, every relationship, there's a little bit different, like, based on, you know, all of that. But I've definitely found, particularly in the last few years, that I've been working on it on a state level and getting to know so many different people. And particularly now I'm sort of at this age where I'm like, oh, there are people kind of ten years younger than me.

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:40:18
Maddy Mandell
And like, I realize all of a sudden I'm like, oh, no, there. I kind of look at me like I'm the one who's got clue.

00:15:40:20 - 00:15:43:05
Dave Quak 
You know, it's weird when you do that. Yeah, yeah.

00:15:43:07 - 00:16:01:06
Maddy Mandell
I still do. I feel like that sometimes. But, and so, you know, in those kind of contexts, I, I'm realizing more and more that there are people around that I can speak with. And, you know, at this point in my ministry to even people that are sort of my contemporaries are speaking with another, guy the other day.

00:16:01:06 - 00:16:14:04
Maddy Mandell
He's about 30s and his first black lead pastoral role when we were talking ministry and we're talking strategy and, and, and even that as well. It was just like, oh, this is, this is a lack of respect. And this is. Yeah, lack of camaraderie that I. Yeah.

00:16:14:04 - 00:16:15:06
Dave Quak 
He wanted to hear from you. Yeah.

00:16:15:06 - 00:16:49:14
Maddy Mandell
I didn't know if I would ever get it. And there are still large portions of people that probably wouldn't like, think that I have anything to offer for that conversation. That's fine, but it but it's, it's really incredible to to see because I think even in what you guys were both just kind of touching on there is, is to see any to see any person walking in the, the giftings that God has given them using, using their talents and to, you know, build up others and to bless the kingdom is just such an incredible thing.

00:16:49:15 - 00:17:08:20
Maddy Mandell
Yes, that can happen across genders like that. You know that like women can be walking in that space. They can be walking along in that space with, with guys as well. And so, I love those moments. Yeah. When I, when I get to work on that and it just, it just feels like, you know, like in Daniel Strickland's book that, you know, better together.

00:17:08:20 - 00:17:17:00
Maddy Mandell
It's those moments, like, I really does feel like maybe we are better together when we are just all after the same goal which is seen. God glorified, his kingdom grown.

00:17:17:02 - 00:17:17:17
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:17:19 - 00:17:18:24
Maddy Mandell
Transformed.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:19:09
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:19:14 - 00:17:23:14
Maddy Mandell
Let's get amongst it. So yeah, it's cool to see. Yeah.

00:17:23:17 - 00:17:26:23
Dave Quak 
Do we have any women senior pastors in our movement? Solo.

00:17:27:00 - 00:17:39:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. We we do have one on one of our, like, culturally, linguistically diverse churches. And she has a gun. She's really. Yeah. It's just like planting a church every other day.

00:17:39:06 - 00:17:39:11
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:39:12 - 00:18:05:03
Maddy Mandell
She's incredible. She's absolutely incredible. And, and potentially somewhere in the pipeline, which is really exciting. But I definitely still think that that's an area in which we, we don't have a lot of of of classic examples. We do have a few women that are, that are in leadership positions in their church, but similar position. Do you guys that co-leading with their spouse as well and are doing phenomenal things in their own right with their own giftings?

00:18:05:03 - 00:18:24:22
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. You know, as you expressed a little bit already, like you figure that sometimes people don't always see that and let it stand on its own the way that it should be, you know, standing on its own as well. But my, my prayer into the future is that we continue to see more, more women, you know, not just like, not be senior pastors to prove a point, but no, because that's what God's called them to do.

00:18:24:22 - 00:18:45:03
Maddy Mandell
And it's what they gifted to do. And their leadership is maybe going to look different. Those churches are maybe going to look different to whatever, like that typical picture that we might have in our head. But I just think, oh my goodness. Like, imagine what the opportunity might actually be be in that. And so yeah, I pray that that more and more that might become something that becomes a little bit more normal.

00:18:45:03 - 00:18:48:06
Maddy Mandell
And we get more and more examples of what that looks like.

00:18:48:11 - 00:19:05:22
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Well, I wonder what. Tell me a little bit more about what you see that looks like. So one thing I've noticed, this isn't a criticism, but sometimes when there's a woman senior pastor, she leads like a dude. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm thinking, like, Joyce Meyer type people. Like, she's amazing. I love her content.

00:19:05:22 - 00:19:24:12
Dave Quak 
The other day, I was struggling with hating somebody, and I would listen to one of her Love Your Enemy sermons that I'm on might straightened out within a few minutes. So what do you think is the difference between senior leadership, between men and women, where women don't lead like men, they lead like the women. God's made them to be like, oh, what's that look like?

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:30:07
Maddy Mandell
I mean, you know, I think I think it's hard to answer those questions that like, automatically just leaning on stereotypes.

00:19:30:12 - 00:19:32:17
Dave Quak 
And I gave, you know, I know like.

00:19:32:19 - 00:19:52:22
Maddy Mandell
That I can like think that it might sort of look like and I don't know, I guess even possibly if there's if this is a better way to speak about it, thinking about my own leadership style and my own giftings. It's really only been in the last couple of years that I've been able to sit back and go, yeah, I could see myself leading a community or leading a church one day.

00:19:52:24 - 00:20:16:11
Maddy Mandell
And knowing that that would probably look a little bit different, you know, and again, so like, I can say all this and like, maybe it's leans on stereotypes. It's not the men don't do this. Yeah. But you know, a little bit more in that, that collaborative kind of space, you know, raising of this up like, you know, empowering others and responsibility, all of those different kinds of things as well.

00:20:16:13 - 00:20:40:13
Maddy Mandell
Stereotypical. Again, I don't know. I just wonder if there's a different kind of a different kind, but an emphasis on on nurturing care and compassion that might come out when we see women in, in, you know, positions of leadership like that. That's some of the things I wonder about. I guess it's say, yes, I mean, me, you know, it's kind of like, I hope we see more of this in the future.

00:20:40:13 - 00:20:45:13
Maddy Mandell
Part of me is like, yeah, actually, just. Yeah, I would just love to see. I just love to see what that looks like. Well, I.

00:20:45:13 - 00:20:58:13
Dave Quak 
Actually think you're on to something better. That's really all I can say, the collaborative thing, because women are usually a little better at pulling out the best of everyone, rather than saying, I'm going this way, follow me. You know, a little bit less on the gates of hell, but let's do this together.

00:20:58:14 - 00:21:17:05
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, like, maybe that comes from, like, my perspective more than anyone else's. You know, yes, we we need to have vision as leaders and we want to be able to to, you know, discern what God's will is for people and lead in a certain direction. But I'm far less inclined to just kind of decide that myself and roll with it, you know?

00:21:17:05 - 00:21:18:08
Maddy Mandell
That's cool. And.

00:21:18:08 - 00:21:23:12
Dave Quak 
Wait, wait a second. From what do you like, collaboration? Because I always feel like it's too much work for us.

00:21:23:12 - 00:21:27:06
Maddy Mandell
So much work. And it's not easy. Like it's not that is not the population is that, you.

00:21:27:06 - 00:21:31:24
Dave Quak 
Know, but then people say stuff you don't want to hear. You have to like weigh it up and.

00:21:32:01 - 00:21:52:09
Maddy Mandell
They want to know. It's actually really funny. I think in my early years of ministry, I was sort of forced to do that a little bit more, and that was because I was a young woman minister and people didn't trust me. And so that's actually what I had to do was to go slack, infuriatingly slow, try to bring people on a journey, establish, okay, what are our shared values?

00:21:52:09 - 00:22:14:00
Maddy Mandell
What do we feel like God is pulling us into? And then there were moments where I would be like, no, this is, you know, X, y, Z is is important. We need to push it to that. But by and large, I would try and work with the people around me, because, you know. Yeah, like in this ironic kind of way of like, I don't know if that, you know, I could set the vision, but the way things stand right now, I don't know if they're gonna come with me.

00:22:14:02 - 00:22:32:02
Maddy Mandell
So we're going to do this together. But I saw the fruit of that as well. Yeah. So the ownership that came from that, and I saw the way that that team was built around that, the way that other people and other people's voices were empowered. And so, yeah, ironically, yeah, having experienced that and having it. Yeah, kind of a frustrating experience.

00:22:32:04 - 00:22:37:06
Maddy Mandell
But I look back now and actually, you know what. Yeah. Like I think I think there's some ways to do that as well.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:51:23
Dave Quak 
Now that's good. I got a friend who goes to a church where it's very much, you get told what to do, and it's an effective church, but he just feels not it not bought in. It's like, well, I don't know who's on staff, I don't know, you know, where we're heading. Yeah. So like there's no real buy in you know.

00:22:51:23 - 00:22:54:12
Dave Quak 
And eventually he, he's like I think I'll stay you know.

00:22:54:14 - 00:23:10:20
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. And I think, you know, you've said like it's still an effective church. So I think that's just the thing we always need to remember in, in this isn't the all different people, all different gifts or different ways of doing things. God's going to bless. Yeah, 100 churches that look 100 different ways. If they're seeking to honor him.

00:23:10:22 - 00:23:18:00
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. But I, I dream for a day where we see what that might look like. Yeah. With a few more women walking in the fullness of the calling that God might have placed on them.

00:23:18:00 - 00:23:27:04
Dave Quak 
That's cool. What about you, Jess? You bring a lot of people along. People and leaders along with you. What's your sort of like mindset towards that in this?

00:23:27:06 - 00:23:56:04
Jess Quak 
I think there's possibly a lot to do with my personality as well. So I even look at you and your brother, who are both. Yeah, pastors of churches, and you have very different personalities, and you pastor in very different ways. And, I think I would like to see women. Yeah. Feel the freedom in that, that just being authentically who God has created you to be, to lead you and the community because each community's different too.

00:23:56:04 - 00:24:24:08
Jess Quak 
Like if you are genuinely leading people, they're not these like cut outs of ideal people. They're they're real lives and they're living within a real demographic of a time and space. And there's going to be certain pressures and there's going to be certain influences. And so that community is going to look different to another community that might be up the road, that has different people and different.

00:24:24:10 - 00:24:51:13
Jess Quak 
And so it's really the leaders responsibility to serve that community in the best way. And for some communities, that will be okay, guys, we need to just like pull our heads out. This is what Jesus has called us to. Let's go. Yeah. And even that very same community in a different season might be like, okay, now that we've we're all going, let's get together and get around one another and see, like, what do you have to bring to the table.

00:24:51:13 - 00:25:15:18
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So it's really a matter of, still doing that in the way that God has made you to do that. But it's if you're serving a community as well, like Under God, and following his leading, it's gonna, it's the freedom to look different. I think he's probably better than rather than a pastor. Looks like this square cutout shape.

00:25:15:18 - 00:25:34:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah. If you don't look like this, then maybe ministry is not for you. Yeah, yeah, it's that, ministry can look like anything. Like, I remember back in the day when I got so sick of having women in ministry, conversation, I was like, I want to write a book, and I'm just getting all my ideas down. These people, if people if people ask me, I'm just going to hand it to them.

00:25:34:22 - 00:26:00:22
Jess Quak 
And one of the things was going to be, women are in ministry. If you're a Christian, you are in ministry. Yeah, there is no debate about that. So as much as, you know, there is a portion of the population of women who are going to be called to leadership and pastoral ministry, there's there's a whole heap of other women to who we need to equally be empowering that actually know you are in ministry.

00:26:00:24 - 00:26:17:03
Jess Quak 
Yeah. And it is ministry. It's serving the church with the gifts that you have. And so every believer has a responsibility to go, okay, God, who have you made me to be? How am I going to bring it? And doing that faithfully?

00:26:17:05 - 00:26:31:22
Dave Quak 
Maddie, before you said there's 55% women and 45% in P11 projects. 11 do you know you research and stuff more than me? Do you know if that's the stats of the church these days? Like how we heavy women to men church wide?

00:26:31:24 - 00:26:52:06
Maddy Mandell
I that's very generous. I, I know that in general in certain areas of the church at least that has been true. But, you know, in recent times we've also been hearing stats, mostly out of the states, but hear a little bit too about, you know, like Gen Z males coming to faith in, in drones as well and way that we haven't seen before.

00:26:52:08 - 00:27:10:08
Maddy Mandell
And so, yeah, so I didn't have like super up to date on on that as well. But I do know I've read and said like I think certainly in the Catholic Church for a while they spoke about how there was a majority that were women. And so, you know, I don't know about the most recent data, but it said and I know there have been periods of time where that's been that's been true.

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:36:00
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's I mean, on a anecdotally, most of the churches that I'm involved in mostly have more women than men. Just it seems to be the case. But a lot of what you both said about, like, you know, the we need to be creative about future, representations of the church. Like, I may have been whingeing to Jess on the way up here about church, because not if living temple people are listening.

00:27:36:00 - 00:27:56:01
Dave Quak 
I love you, it's not you, it's me. But like, we just get together, marry all the time and sing songs and then do a sermon. Yeah. And go home. Yeah. You know, and I know there's fruit in it, but I'm like, there's so much freedom in the Word of God on how church can look. Yeah, yeah. You know, wouldn't it be awesome if we could be a bit more creative on all of that stuff?

00:27:56:01 - 00:28:14:08
Dave Quak 
And look at some of the other passages in the Bible about church structures and, well, at least find one that says you have to have songs and then a sermon and then go home like an announcements, like maybe that's what the the future women senior pastors can bring is actually openness to a bit of difference. Yeah, not just in row.

00:28:14:08 - 00:28:17:16
Dave Quak 
It's not just doing the same thing over and over and over and over.

00:28:17:16 - 00:28:20:18
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it could be a day like this.

00:28:20:19 - 00:28:28:18
Dave Quak 
Okay. You know, I'll be something. I'll just. Yeah. And I actually love the Company of Women in Love group last night. Just. Yeah, it was, it.

00:28:28:20 - 00:28:30:05
Jess Quak 
Was, it was the only God made.

00:28:30:09 - 00:28:52:06
Dave Quak 
Last night. So the guys I'm not the only dude, but there was, like, just this bunch of 30 year old, like, mostly single epic women. Yeah. Who were just, like, living for the kingdom and leading people to Jesus and loving God and, you know, serving, being chaplains and all the just such legends. And so, yeah, it's just it's really encouraging.

00:28:52:08 - 00:28:53:11
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:28:53:13 - 00:29:10:05
Dave Quak 
Man, it's been such a good chat, ladies, but Jess and Maddie, we're going to start winding up. But just as we do I'd love to ask you each to answer. So like, what is it about being pastors that you love? I know there's hurdles. There's other stuff too, but what do you love?

00:29:10:07 - 00:29:36:22
Maddy Mandell
There is. Yeah. There's just so much incredible stuff. It it's it's an unbelievable privilege to be able to walk with individuals. And, you know, I guess in the context of what we've been talking about today, I, I there's a real joy in moments where I, yeah, get to work with young women especially, and help them feel secure and feel safe in their giftings and in that call, maybe in ways that I had doubted in the past.

00:29:36:22 - 00:30:01:07
Maddy Mandell
But that's true across the board with everybody. But also the way that you get to see that then magnified in a whole community of people, you know, we've all got like relationships and friendship groups in our life, but there's something so unique in working with individuals. But then also seeing the way a church community, or a group of, you know, communities, I guess in the context I'm in right now when they walk with the Lord.

00:30:01:09 - 00:30:20:01
Maddy Mandell
How you see God moves in that, I guess, how you see other people's lives transformed and communities changed. And, you just it's like you're watching this story play out like it. And it's not it's not your story. It's so any one person's story, it's what God is doing. But you get to see that play out in such an incredible way.

00:30:20:03 - 00:30:45:14
Maddy Mandell
And you're not the hero. You are not the author. You are just loving people and trying to empower them. And, you know, in moments, maybe trying to help shed light on something or redirect or whatever that looks like. And so that is a really that's a really incredible thing. And, and you know, as well, like when, when you, when you feel called to this work and, you know, it's what God's asked you to do with your life, like the purpose that comes with that.

00:30:45:16 - 00:31:03:12
Maddy Mandell
Was just saying against my husband the other day, I was, oh, yeah, like, I just I could not see myself doing anything else. Lack of this is this is it. And so when you walk in that kind of space, the the purpose and the hope that comes with that and you know, yeah, knowing there's going to be ups and downs but but this is where God wants me to be and I'm walking in.

00:31:03:12 - 00:31:05:21
Maddy Mandell
That is is such a privilege.

00:31:06:01 - 00:31:14:23
Dave Quak 
I love that man. When you talk about that, your face lights up so you wouldn't you know, you said, this is what I want to do. Not if someone else offered you a 500 grand to do something else or.

00:31:15:04 - 00:31:16:09
Maddy Mandell
No, no.

00:31:16:11 - 00:31:17:10
Dave Quak 
This is what you built for.

00:31:17:11 - 00:31:18:13
Maddy Mandell
This is it. I love.

00:31:18:13 - 00:31:21:07
Dave Quak 
It. What about you, Jess?

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:42:00
Jess Quak 
Yeah, that's. You sum that up really? Well, I think is I just, I think for me personally, it just it is like food for my soul. When I see those light bulb moment, say, moments of revelation or I have moments for people and that it can be, you know, a four year old or a 90 year old.

00:31:42:06 - 00:32:11:22
Jess Quak 
And there's God at work in all of these different people, and we're all working in moving together. Finding ourselves more in him and then seeing the way he's moving and the way that we are representing him to the world around us. I think that is just, yeah, such a privilege to be a part of. I think for me, I, you know, I say that today we get to do this.

00:32:11:22 - 00:32:51:15
Jess Quak 
We actually. Yeah. And it can look so different and that's fun too. And and that you had the honor of being able to see someone through heartbreak or celebrate in the biggest moments. It is, and just having God there and just making it just so meaningful. It is. Yeah. It's just it's like it it's a it's a pouring out and act of worship, but then it draws me to worship because I then see how God does what he does with just his people.

00:32:51:15 - 00:32:52:08
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:32:52:10 - 00:33:09:02
Dave Quak 
Thank you Jesus, that was awesome to. I think you both got a ten out of ten for that answer in case you. Yeah. Hey, just quick, Maddie Mendell, it's been such an honor having you both here. I feel really privileged to have heard from you both. Because you're my good wife. Jess, I get to hear you pray a lot.

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:17:08
Dave Quak 
So today, Maddie, would you please bless us and the listeners by praying us out? And thank you so much for coming on. So many souls.

00:33:17:08 - 00:33:49:18
Maddy Mandell
Maddie. Thank you so much. I'd love to you. Lord, we just thank you so much that you are such an a creative and personal God that you have made all of humanity, with so much variety. Lord, men and women with different personalities, different gifts, different callings. But your desire, Lord, to weave us together in this beautiful tapestry kind of way.

00:33:49:20 - 00:34:09:17
Maddy Mandell
You know, even in the midst of our brokenness and our sinfulness in this life here, so that we can serve you so that we can bless other people is just such an incredible life to live. And and so, Lord, we just pray that that as, as the church continues to live, continues to seek to serve you alongside one another.

00:34:09:19 - 00:34:35:16
Maddy Mandell
That yeah, more people would be church, that more glory would be brought to your name. But there are so many big questions that we ask ourselves. Things like women in ministry or whatever else that might be. We want to continue to walk those things through in community with grace. We want to continue to love on the people that those conversations affect in a unique way.

00:34:35:18 - 00:34:56:10
Maddy Mandell
But that's just ultimately because, Lord, we know that you call us to love one another. And so it's a joy to be able to live for you, to worship you, Lord, even in the midst of things that might feel gray or seasons that might be difficult. We know that you have called us to yourself to live for you, to live in relationship with you and to serve you.

00:34:56:10 - 00:35:13:04
Maddy Mandell
And and so I just pray for the three of us here in this room and all those who might be listening, that we would just continue to be able to walk in step with you to step into the callings you placed on each of our lives, whatever that might look like. Knowing that even when we are weak, you are strong and you carry us very.

00:35:13:04 - 00:35:16:00
Maddy Mandell
So we just thank you for this time. In Jesus name.

00:35:16:02 - 00:35:17:01
Dave Quak 
Amen. Amen.