Church That Makes Room for Mental Messiness

A teenager stands up mid-sermon and yells “Boring!” and the room goes quiet. He was the smartest man in the room in my opinion.

We talk honestly about church and mental health, especially for people who are neurodivergent, carrying trauma, living with anxiety or depression, or simply feeling “different” in a space that is supposed to be safe.

Rather than more  criticism: we name what the church can do well, and what it is already doing well in pockets. We share concrete examples of inclusion like building a sensory room with adjustable lighting and sound, and making simple accommodations during prayer so people with autism, ADHD, or high anxiety are not put on the spot. We also dig into why Jesus’ vision of community centers compassion, dignity, and welcome, not image management.

We explore the church’s history of social support and why hope-filled community can strengthen mental well-being, including the idea that church attendance can correlate with better mental health outcomes for teenagers. We also talk about how different church environments work for different people: quiet and contemplative, high-energy and expressive, small groups, and even online options for anyone not ready to walk through a door yet.

If you feel burned by church or unsure where you fit, this conversation offers practical next steps, including mental health first aid, showing up for someone without fixing them, and starting change with humility. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a safer community, and leave a review with one thing you wish churches understood about mental health.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Holiday Church Dread

Dave Quak 0:00

Welcome to Sunburn Souls. On this show we speak about life and faith in our mental well-being, and I have got my human being that I love in the studio. Jessica Quack, how are you doing this time?

Jess Quak 0:11

How are you, Dave?

Dave Quak 0:12

Yeah, I'm good, thanks, but I do need to run a scenario by you and see if this happens to you too. I don't know if you get this being a pastor, Jess, but whenever I'm on holidays, someone from my world wants me to come and visit their church because they want to show off their pastor. But what they don't know is that when you're a pastor and you're on holidays, I don't know if all the other other pastors out there feel like this, but I don't want to go to church, man. I go to church all the time, like so often. And I love it, but sometimes I just like a week off. Anyway, this one year, my mum was going to a new church and she was uber proud of her pastor. And she's like, Dave, you're on holidays, please come to church. And she pulled every mum card. So I ended up going. And everything I expected happened, happened. Like I got there, and in a straightaway I could tell from the hymns at the start that it was going to be long. You know, when you can just tell from that first note. And look, if you're a hymn lover, you go for it. Um, but you know, I could tell it was going to be long. And then the hymns went for ages, and there was a guy in a tuber, and like all these random instruments. And I kind of liked watching the tuber guy because it's such a ludicrous instrument. Like an instrument you wear is a crazy instrument. And so he's all chewing, he's all tubering up and doing his thing. And then the dude preaches for like so long, so long, and it was so boring, dude. And I was trying my best to like engage because mum wanted me there. And then you know when you're looking at him and then you like drift up and you're looking at the roof and you like start counting the light bulbs and the slats and the holes in the panel, and then you oh man, I'm not listening. You look back at him again and try to focus in, and something else happens. Anyway, it went on and on. And all of a sudden, this young dude, like 16, just stands up and screams out, boring! This is boring! I want to play basketball. And I was so stoked because I was like, oh man, finally someone like is saying what everyone else is thinking. Anyway, my mum, the cheeky monkey, who brought me to the church, jumps up within a nanosecond and goes, I'll take you outside. And so she cruises outside into the sun. And I can see her playing basketball with this young guy. And you know how mums double dribble with their butt really far out, like mums do? Mums are getting cooler, but my Yeah, but like you know how a mum can do that? They stand like feet side by side, double dribbling, throwing it from between their knees, but somehow they still get it in every time. It's just this weird thing. So mum's doing that, she's having a blast outside in the sun, I'm stuck inside listening to this dude go on. And then as the young boy work walks out and is out of earshot, the most it just made me really angry. He apologised for him. And he said, Sorry everyone, that young man's got learning difficulties and like sort of just I don't know, dude, like explained his existence away. It was more than his behaviour. It was like he was a burden to the church, not just what he did was unconventional. And I was just mad for the rest of the day, and but I was just thinking, like, okay, if we had an episode on the things that church has done to people with mental well-being issues or people who are a bit different, if we had an episode on the bad things churches have done, we would be here till 2094. Like the church has stuffed it up.

unknown 3:44

Yeah.

Choosing Hope Instead Of Hate

Dave Quak 3:45

But I don't want to always be propagating hate against the church because essentially I actually love the church because the Bible calls the church the bride of Christ. And if you've got someone you love, even if their bride doesn't behave, you still want to work with that person because you love their bride. You still want to do what you can to stay in relationship. And so if Jesus is the person we want to stay in relationship with and his bride is the church, then there needs to be some sort of like I don't know, like some grace being shown, and also some like room to grow. Because yes, the church is stuffed up, but for the rest of this episode, I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about some of the good things that have happened because we can't always be bagging on the church.

Simple Accommodations That Include People

Dave Quak 4:29

And a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a lady who goes to a large church in Brisbane, really prominent church, maybe the biggest church in Brisbane, and they've just implemented a building program where they're going to build a sensory room as big as the cry room or baby room, whatever, that already exists there. It's going to be almost replicated. Soft furnishing, the ability to turn the volume of the sermon up and down, you know, um, a fridge, uh sink, you know, all the lighting can be adjusted, all that for people who have sensory issues. And I know that doesn't solve everything, but I was like, look, that's something worth shouting out. Putting in a few hundred grand to making sure that that's an area where we take care and love people. And so that was encouraging. You know, and then I heard another story the other week, it was on this podcast actually, um, where the senior pastors, if they ever did an altar call, instead of waiting for one of the young people who had autism and ADHD to come forward, they'd every time walk down and ask them, Do you need prayer? You know, so they felt included because there was no way they were ever going to respond to an altar call. I mean, there's a whole heap of people who never will, including just introverts and people who get anxious and all that. But that of their faith persuasion, they were very um, you know, uh prayer-based ministry, so they went to the young person. And if the young person said, No, cool, they just walk on back. And I don't think that's that that's not that hard of an accommodation. You know, the church has had a history of being epic at this. And the crazy thing is, in the early first, second sort of century, Rome tried to institute social justice to the poor and the marginalized and everything, because they could see that when the church did it, people's lives were changed and the church exploded. Now they tried to implement it and it didn't work because they were doing it from a place of like envy or whatever. But something changes in the lives of people and of the church when we actually get this right.

Church As A Safe Place

Jess Quak 6:44

Jesus was all about being compassionate and loving to the marginalized, to those who didn't necessarily feel like they fit within, you know, society's boundaries. And so church is really one of the few places on earth you should you should be able to come. Jesus' vision of the church is that everyone should be able to come in. Know that they are loved, that they are welcome, that um they can receive this good news, that you don't have to, you know, put on a mask, to wear a certain thing, to act a certain way, to come in and and to receive and to hear what he has to say. Um and not that necessarily that, yeah, God is gonna leave you in that space where he's not you're not being challenged. You know, once you get to know God, he's gonna go, okay, we're we're working on on bringing you to your best self. But it is the place where you should be able to come and and be okay with who you are, knowing that it's a safe place to be who you are. And my experience of church is very much that. I hate crying in front of people. I don't like crying at all.

Dave Quak 8:02

I love you. I think you're beautiful, but when you cry, it's like you turn into an entire different human. Like your eyes get puffy, you turn a different color. It's crazy.

Jess Quak 8:12

But sometimes I'll be in church and God is doing something in my heart, and I just lose it and I'm bawling. And I feel like that is a completely safe space that I am so loved and able to do that. I feel that I can come to church and I can dance, I can sing, I can stand, I can sit, I can cry, I can be angry, I can be happy. I'm so loved, you know, in that space. And that's that's what God desires, you know, for our community is that we can see each other and not just say, you know, your behavior is acceptable if it's not, but go like, you know what? Yeah, maybe you're struggling with this thing. Let me love you in that place and help walk with you through this.

Dave Quak 9:02

We really should be those people. I love the start of the Salvation Army Church. You know what I mean? Like normally now people who think of the salvos think of you know, the guy who is collecting money or in the uniform or whatever, um, brass bands and stuff, and all that stuff, have it, man, if you want to do that. But they started as wild evangelists that would go out to specifically the poor and the marginalized and the mentally ill and the and all of that fringe society and bring them in and feed them and preach them the gospel. Like I love how the early stories talk about how God moves so heavily that a whole bunch of people would get like slain in the Holy Spirit, even when they weren't really chasing it. And so then they built these little like bunks in the back of church. I feel like that's just like I reckon there's a chippy. There's a chippy in there, and he wants to be used by God. He's like, I I can bring something to the table here. Build some bunks, and then they just piff them into the bunks and go home. And then they just let them sleep there and stuff. But these people didn't have a home, and so they meet Jesus, they get a night of sleep, they get a feed, and then their life's marginally better, and even if it's just for a short time, the church was pioneering that.

Jess Quak 10:22

A lot of the social justice things that we see began with church, and maybe it has been secular secularized um or sold off. Um but a lot of you know, even the names of things like St. Vincent de Paul's, you see with things like AA, one of their first things is there is a higher power. It's starting with this acknowledgement that we can't do this on our own. We're never we're expected to, that we need help. We all need help in different ways, shapes, and forms. And it's okay to come broken knowing that there is a God who wants to meet you there, and his people who are his representatives want to meet you there too and walk with you through it.

Dave Quak 11:09

Yeah, I love that. I love people who meet people where they're at. I've got a mate called Matt Prater, and he's part of an organization called the King's Table in Brisbane, and they literally just put on these amazing feasts for homeless people, and they do share the gospel with them, but they don't do it in a way where it's like you can't eat unless you're here. Do you know what I mean? It's like, no, we're here to love you. And it's called the King's Table because they treat these guys like they're at the King's Table. It's a banquet. I've spoken at two of them, and the feed is better than no offense, Jess, you cook our food a lot, but it's better than what we have here. It's amazing, you know, and like those things are happening all over the place, and sometimes they can be overshadowed by you know, a mega church pastor scandal or something, but the church is still good. She's still good.

Jess Quak 11:57

I'm pretty sure. Um, so a lady called Rebecca McLaughlin, she's recently written a book um about church and mental health, and that the statistics show that, especially teenagers going to church is better for your mental health. Even if you don't believe it is actually better for your mental health. There is something about being in the environment of church, people who have this hope, are people who are acknowledged from the get-go that we're not perfect and it's it's okay we're still loved there, and that we can love others well, and that sometimes we're gonna mess that up and we can grow through that and and knowing that you know that there is a future and a hope. Like that it's a powerful thing having this community that is that is there for you, not just on your best days, but also in your darkest of days.

Dave Quak 13:02

She's blowing up, she's really actually very difficult to get a hold of. So whenever I hear of someone like her or read something of hers, I try to get them to come on the podcast. It's really hard because they're big wigs, man. And we're like, we're not small wigs, we're like medium wigs, you know. And like I'd love to be able to get her to come on, not because of any social status or any of that, just because her story is unbelievable, you know. And the reason she's blowing up is she's speaking about this sort of thing, not five steps to an a ri a bigger mansion. It's literally like how to love the broken and the lost, which is I think one thing the church is starting to come around to is that that's the real topic. It's not even about us, it's about who God has called us to be to society.

Jess Quak 13:48

There are gonna be some things I think that are going to be uncomfortable about being in a church setting. I think that is just simply it's gonna happen. But there are lots of different churches that I think as well work for different personalities quite well. So people who find sitting down, listening to a long sermon really boring and really hard to engage with because you you you need a bit more stimulation than that to actually be able to engage. There are churches

Finding A Church That Fits You

Jess Quak 14:25

that include dancing and lights and more things like that where you're engaging sort of that different part of you. Whereas for other people who would find that kind of an environment over stimulating, there are churches that are a lot more quiet and contemplative. And they both show Jesus, they're just doing it in different ways. And so sometimes if you've had a church experience or you're afraid of going to church because you don't know what the experience will be like, um if you find that, oh, this isn't for me, don't stop there because church is still so valuable in what it has to bring and in the way that it creates a way for you to engage with this God who loves you and teach you about what he has to say to you. But sometimes it's a matter of just finding your spot. And there are there are small churches that are like meet in homes. Yeah. Um, it's just as valid as mega churches that that meet in buildings and worship that is just sitting there in silence in the presence of God, and ones where you're jumping and dancing, and you've got ribbons and painting and all sorts of things, equally as valid. Yeah, they're just different, and you will mesh more with one than the other. And I think it's important that we as the church acknowledge the fact that they are just as valid as one another, and not that every person is going to feel comfortable in our shape of the church, but helping people find where they fit within the wider body and go, like, you know what, maybe this church isn't for you, but the the other local church that's just down the road, they're really good with this, and you'll really benefit from being there. Um and you know, maybe there are gonna be times, and definitely actually there will be times when you go to church and it's gonna be outside your comfort zone because no church is going to be all about you, and it should be. You will pretty much definitely find one thing about your church that is just uncomfortable for you, where you it's like, oh, this is not my preference. That's not really what church is about. You need to, yeah, it's finding a place where you can engage, but it's not about having a church meet your preferences either. It's about I can engage here, therefore I can appreciate things that are different that will suit other people better here than what I would prefer. But I will continue to engage in the way that I can because it's not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of each person who comes here.

Dave Quak 17:19

And just don't think you would get that if you let a church, because I'm uncomfortable in our church all the time. A few weeks ago, the worship leader was singing that Amen song, and she wanted us to look at each other and sing the Lord's blessing at each other. And I've never been more uncomfortable in my life, man. I'm happy to preach, I'm happy to be vulnerable in but to do that, I wanted to run, man. But at the same time, that's a person who loves Jesus, and she is one of the most amazing at what we're speaking about, about connecting with the lost and broken, and so for her it came from a place of overflow. So it's never gonna meet your needs. And I'd say I would say that if you're looking for a church to meet your needs, it's never gonna be there. And then secondly, if you're looking for a church to meet your needs, you might find yourself a church and be disgruntled in six months because you've gone there for the wrong reasons. It's just not about that. It's about you connecting to a community and then serving that community and you meeting the needs of the body of Christ together as we play all together. I have heard some people be critical of maybe your more fancy pants like tight gene, you know, um smoke machine churches being good at that but not good at social justice, but that's not the that's not a rule. Like one of the biggest fancy pants churches I know has the biggest budget in that church directed at ministering to drug addicts. You know, and and and going hard, like leading the way, being the people. So, like you said, it's not a formulae. I think there's other things we can benefit from, even having a personal kind of awareness when you're walking in that someone else might be feeling completely like to go, like you said, go to church is can be uncomfortable, but to go there as someone who's willing to go and chat to that person and bring them from the outside to the inside. Yeah. You know, like we've both got a person we love called Rob, who, if there is a new person at church, he sees them, he goes to them, and he comes to church for that reason. He doesn't come he's got lots of mates there and would probably prefer to hang with his mates, but he comes ready to to find anyone on the outside and bring them inside. Yeah. You know, so it is it's a conscious awareness, hey. Even our Bapo movement, man, like we're Bapos, and you know, sometimes we have a reputation of being stodgy or whatever our reputation is, but things are changing, and what I like is there's a lot of now mental health first aid training coming through the movement, which if you don't know what that is, it's a two-day training where you become aware to recognize someone who's having a mental health moment, and you could be the person just to tie them over. So the same idea as first aid. So say first aid happens, okay. So here we go. Last week at church, one of our old ladies had a stack and fainted, and all the people

Mental Health First Aid And Everyday Care

Dave Quak 20:09

who knew first aid went and took care of her until the ambulance and the hospital was implemented. And it's the same idea with the mental health first aid. So say someone has like a panic attack or is super depressed or something, you're equipped enough not to fix them, but just to get them steady, hold it over till someone who knows what they're doing is coming along. That's training is happening all through our um movement, which is awesome. I mean, ultimately the church things are cool, but the church is the body of Christ, it's the body of believers. And so it's not only the organized religion responsibility to live this out, the real onus comes where every single day, as children of God, we get up and choose to live beyond ourselves. You know, and even if we're in our own mess, uh we can still live beyond ourselves. You know, we're all wounded healers, as Henry Nowan said. You know, we've all got a wound, but we can also bring healing to other people in our wounding. You know, so I think that's super important. I mean, on a personal level. I still remember once this guy came to me and he was like bemoaning the fact that no one let him do pastoral care at church. And I'm like, what do you mean, man? Oh, they haven't let me do just do pastoral care. Go and find someone who needs love and you know, bring them love.

Jess Quak 21:36

We're all called to help and love people. It's not something that you have on a checklist that you're given and you're like, yes, I've done that for today. It's who we are as a people. And it should be a blessing to the world. And we're also wonderfully different and wonderfully loved in that.

Dave Quak 21:55

Probably one of the last things I want to say is that like you have The responsibility, if you want to see this in your faith community, to start the process. You know, don't tell people what to do, but like start maybe have a meeting with the leadership team. Hey, I've got a real heart for people with sensory issues. Can we start looking towards the equivalent of a feeding room, but for them? Or, you know, just start taking steps. You know, because if it is the body of Christ, well then every part has to play its part. And your part might be to get this thing going. And can I just recommend you do it with humility? Don't go up and tell the leadership team all the things they've done wrong or all the things they've because they're volunteers too, man, they're trying their best as well. And they're, you know, trying to love people too. You know. But it could just be your opportunity to bring people into a place where you're like, oh no, God's got this and we can roll out something. You know, you might be meant you might want to mentor someone. You know, look at someone in your world who's about ten years younger than you, who you can invest in. And when they go to the mental health ward, maybe go there and just bring them a coffee. Just hang out. You don't need to know all the answers. You know, so often when someone's in despair, we think we need to know everything. Where, you know, Job was in despair in the Bible, and he lost everything. Like I'm talking everything. And then his mates turn up and they just sit in the dirt with him for a week. And at that point in time, they are brilliant supporters. They don't try to solve it, they don't try to give him Christian platitudes, they just sit there in the dirt, and when Job's like putting dust on his head, they put dust on their head, like they're just in it. A week goes by and they got start getting a bit impatient and frustrated. You know, this is happening because you've cursed God, or this is happening because you know, or because you've been disobedient or whatever. Don't be that. Just sit with someone, you know, and you never know what it really will do in their life.

unknown 23:49

Yeah.

Jess Quak 23:50

Just being there, acknowledging them, um, just being present for them. And I think it it is important to note as well that for the majority of churches, and uh we know a lot of pastors, their heart is for people. If churches are getting it wrong, it's give them the benefit of the doubt that they're not intending to be malicious or to hurt you or to overlook you. Um, that if you've had a bad church experience, it's not because churches are evil. Often pastors have have so many things that they would love to, I would love if we had a sensory room at church. I would love if we could implement all these things. Sometimes the money and the logistics are not there for that to be able to happen. And it's not because our heart isn't for it, it's just because it's tricky. It's tricky to have so many different people with so many different needs. And it's not only up to a pastor to meet all of those needs, but the entire church itself. And we are a people who are doing the best we can with what we've got. And sometimes that's not great. And sometimes you'll meet a kooky person because there are you you may be someone coming to church and be like, Well, I'm I'm kooky and broken, will they accept me? And then you come across the other kooky broken person and they say something wild and outrageous and terrible to you. Give them the same grace that you would have given yourself.

Dave Quak 25:20

Because a lot of the time the church gets a hard time because the people in the church do crazy stuff. But man, you can go to Autobahn or a race uh like a car racing club or anywhere, and there'll be a kooky person there too. Like kooky people aren't exclusive to church. Maybe we have a few extras, but like but you know what I mean? Like you'll you're right.

Jess Quak 25:40

Okay, this person is here and they're loved and they're part of this family. I have my own stuff. If that person is here and loved and family, I can be too.

Dave Quak 25:52

Like But like I know, no, these things matter because the body of Christ needs to advance, and we love the church, Jess. You know, I get annoyed at the church and people and all that stuff, but eventually uh ultimately we love her, and she has been sent and set up by God Himself

Healing From Church Hurt And Next Steps

Dave Quak 26:07

to be an agent of blessing to humanity.

Jess Quak 26:10

If you are struggling with the idea of going to church, but you do want to check it out, whether it be because you've had a bad experience or because you don't know what to expect or it's really outside your comfort zone, take a look at the different ways that church can be done as well. Like maybe a Sunday service isn't your first step into church community, maybe it's a life group or a small group or something like that is your first step. You know, there are play groups, there are all sorts of craft groups and garden groups, depending on what you know, which church it is. And start making those small steps outside your comfort zone, or there's even the online church. If if getting out of the house is something that you just are not up for up to yet, um, because of whatever's going on in your life, there are online churches. A lot of churches also zoom, there are online life groups. It is, um, you don't necessarily even have to to overcome that step to get there. And if if you have been hurt by church, um, I know a lot of mental health issues can come with if you've been hurt trying to recover from that hurt, because those feelings of rejection and those feelings of um where you feel harmed can be can be so big and they can be so massive to overcome. So I'm not trying to downplay how your experience there, but I do ask that if you're someone who has had a negative experience of church um and you have completely written it off to maybe even ask God to help you with a bit of healing. Because while there may have been that negative experience, there are so many more positive things that you may very well be missing out on because of that thing in the past. And we'd love to see people freed and heal from stuff that has happened that has been hard, and some of it's been genuinely hard. And and maybe it will look the church will look different for you in the future, but please don't write it off because it is one of the for me as someone who has gone through you know good stages with real mental health challenges. Um the church for me was a place that I could get real healing and real support and accountability and encouragement as I walked through that. Not that the church necessarily at every stage was the thing that healed me or that happened perfectly, but being there in that community was something that helped me from slipping backwards more than what I would have. And so I just want to encourage people in that space too.

Dave Quak 29:08

If you Google churches in my area, they will turn up. If you want to listen to our church, go to living temple.com.au and we've got our sermons that you know that are uploaded each week. They're very terrible recording quality because we just shove an iPhone at the front row and hit record. But it gives you a taste of a church that is mental health aware and how we live things out. So, Jessica Quack, pray for us and may God bless everyone listening.

Jess Quak 29:36

Thank you for your church. I thank you that though we are not perfect, we are yours, and that you grow us and shape us and move us in order to be a light to your world. And so I ask that for each and every single one of our listeners today, God, that no matter where they are at with their relationship with you and with your church, that you will bring them closer to you, that they will be able to take a step forward, whether that be encouraged to seek out a church locally to them, or to be able to take a step closer to healing from wounds, or a step closer to courage for overcoming fear. Lord, we we do lift up your church to you and ask that you continue to make us loving like you are loving and gracious like you are gracious, patient like you are patient, and filled with your hope and love. We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.